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Comment by KaiserPro | original | The MacBook Pro's OLED PWM Problem: When a 'Better' Display Becomes Worse to Use
[−]KaiserPro · 2026-11-15 Sun 14:14 UTC · link
Ok but who can actually see 240hz?

Like CRTs scan slower than that, and almost no-one could say they could see the pixels being drawn.

Sure you could hear those fuckers, but not see them, unless you had a source of vibration nearby.

Howe much of this is measurable, and how much of it is similar to the Himalayan salt lamp stuff?

[−]LoganDark · 2026-11-15 Sun 14:18 UTC · link
It's not about whether you can "see 240Hz". CRT phosphors have sustain, while OLED does not. The fully-on, fully-off cycle, if infrequent enough, causes some sort of visual stimulation that some brains absolutely do not like. You don't have to see it to feel it.

Sometimes I can tell flickery fixtures because they just "feel more staticky". I don't get visual eyestrain or nausea though.

[−]ZyanWu · 2026-11-15 Sun 14:44 UTC · link
> You don't have to see it to feel it.

It's not magic. :) You DO see it. 500 Hz for the median observer; above 800 Hz for some individuals. https://doi.org/10.1038/srep07861

[−]LoganDark · 2026-11-15 Sun 14:57 UTC · link
This paper appears to be about the DLP effect that happens when a strobing light moves across your vision. Similar, but not the same thing!

There is still some ability to percieve strobing at a steady state though, even if the amplitude is reduced by visual persistence.

[−]ZyanWu · 2026-11-15 Sun 18:29 UTC · link
What exactly do you mean by "not the same thing"? Using a device means moving your eyes, among other things. I don't exactly stare at a specific point on the screen for the 63 Hz visual persistence to take effect and I'm pretty sure 95% of the other individuals of this world don't do that either
[−]mrob · 2026-11-15 Sun 14:58 UTC · link
>CRT phosphors have sustain

Other than some old monochrome CRTs, all CRT phosphors decay too fast to prevent flicker. You get some softening of the trailing edges of the phantom array images, but they're not actually blurred together like on a sample-and-hold display. And even the fastest CRTs have fairly low refresh rates, making it more obvious.

[−]KaiserPro · 2026-11-15 Sun 17:11 UTC · link
Ok, do you have the same problem with DLP projections? because those colour wheels are slow as fuck compared to 240hz,

what about old-timey film projection? thats ten times slower and fully on/off?

[−]Y-bar · 2026-11-15 Sun 14:18 UTC · link
Fluorescent tubes used to run at less than 100 Hz before scientists discovered that that was unhealthy for many. Now they run at 30-60 kilohertz.
[−]rayiner · 2026-11-15 Sun 14:30 UTC · link
I can easily see at least some PWM LED headlights flickering in my peripheral vision (which is more sensitive to flicker).
[−]mrob · 2026-11-15 Sun 14:55 UTC · link
The problem isn't the flicker directly (240Hz is above the flicker fusion threshold), it's the phantom array effect when you move your eyes. Static images transform into a series of overlapping images, and this can be annoying and distracting. It's visible well into the kilohertz depending on how strong your saccadic masking is. I can personally see PWM up to about 10kHz (tested using a strobing LED).

AFAIK, all OLED displays have PWM flicker, and for this reason I stick with LCD, where flicker-free displays are available (although PWM flicker is present in some LCD displays too).