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Comment by torginus | original | Casey Muratori – The Root of the Root of All Evil – BSC 2026 [video]
[−]torginus · 2026-08-30 Sun 13:25 UTC · link
Personally I'm quite sure this is super interesting, but I don't really have 3 hours to listen to this, even 1.5h at 2x speed is too much.

I would very much prefer something written down, so I could absorb this at my own pace. I know, gift horse, but still.

[−]knollimar · 2026-08-30 Sun 13:30 UTC · link
If you want a spoilery TLDR: It's more about the journey. He tracks down the origin, finds the support, finds the support flawed, and leaves you to your own conclusion rather than make a new flawed one.

The basic idea is that the origin assumes a highly critical inner hot loop, don't assume where it is, and optimize there.

There's some other time spent saying this justifies slower abstractions for maintainability elsewhere.

[−]abainbridge · 2026-08-30 Sun 14:05 UTC · link
Another point I liked was that there was, apparently, an influential book called Structured Programming, whose content was so universally agreed upon, that all programming became Structured Programming. Nobody needs the book anymore.
[−]mrkeen · 2026-08-30 Sun 14:30 UTC · link
Hard to tell if sarcastic, but anyway.

I think the GOTOers just died out.

Some day null, statements (rather than expressions) and side-effects will have always been wrong.

[−]knollimar · 2026-08-30 Sun 14:32 UTC · link
No, they're not sarcastic. It was an interesting point; if an idea succeeds well enough people just do it and make it "common sense". It's a point in the talk.
[−]tialaramex · 2026-08-30 Sun 15:09 UTC · link
It's not the focus of the talk and so it's hard to tell if Casey understands (the choice to separate the words GO TO in several places suggests he does) but the `goto` keyword you've seen in several modern languages is not the problematic "GO TO statement", it's a de-fanged remnant, the toy poodle to GO TO's wolf pack.

The actual GO TO complained of is, like the jump instruction in machine code, just entirely unbothered by context. Want to go from the middle of this code about employee payroll processing to mid-way through initializing a weather simulation? No problem. Well. No problem for the machine, for a human programmer it's a complete nightmare. Actually that's putting it mildly, nightmares have more structure. You cannot do anything like that with for example C's goto.

You compiler can, and in a few cases (that's what the discussion about the tail-call optimisation is about for example) it will, but the program you wrote doesn't do this and so you don't have to try to keep the whole program in your head.

So in that sense GOTO died out with, maybe BASICs? I think the BASICs tend to have that wolf nature GOTO feature, but nothing modern has it.

[−]cure_42 · 2026-08-30 Sun 16:15 UTC · link
Windows batch, no?
[−]hirvi74 · 2026-08-30 Sun 16:57 UTC · link
So, I have never seen anyone actually use GOTOs, so maybe a lot of the stigma comes from excessive, poor usage or something.

However, having written a good chunk of ASM in my life. I don't think jumps or branches are really that hard to follow. Jumps/Branches and GOTOs specify the next location. It is not as though one has to guess where.

It's not the arrow, it's the archer that is the problem.

[−]kshallvari · 2026-08-30 Sun 13:37 UTC · link
There is a 45 min version at Primeagen's "The Standup"
[−]philippta · 2026-08-30 Sun 14:33 UTC · link
Having watched both, they cover completey different topics.
[−]wpm · 2026-08-30 Sun 14:25 UTC · link
Audio transcription has been around for a while, you could solve this problem for yourself quite easily.
[−]andai · 2026-08-30 Sun 14:38 UTC · link
I get the auto-transcript with yt-dlp then ask a cheap LLM like DeepSeek to clean it up.

Though lately I've been uploading the audio to AssemblyAI, I somehow still haven't used up my credits after several years lol

At one point I built a system that would summarize the transcript and I'd be able to ask questions about it, but Gemini can do that natively now so I usually just use that.

[−]andai · 2026-08-30 Sun 14:39 UTC · link
Maybe go for a long drive? Long walk? Whatever floats your boat.

I used to do manual labor and I would work my way through like eight hours of audiobooks per day.

[−]torginus · 2026-08-30 Sun 15:50 UTC · link
I've noticed after I've switched to audiobooks that my retention is horrible compared to reading. For actual complex topics, it's even worse.
[−]pton_xd · 2026-08-30 Sun 14:40 UTC · link
It's worth the listen if you're even mildly interested in the history of computer science. He's a great presenter. I guess at some point you do have to prioritize how to spend your time, though.
[−]xen0 · 2026-08-30 Sun 14:40 UTC · link
Thanks to modern playback technology, you can pause it and resume play later at your convenience.
[−]MobiusHorizons · 2026-08-30 Sun 14:59 UTC · link
It is quite long, but I thought it was worth it if you can find the time. Short of that I think just reading the Knuth article the quote is from might bring similar insights.
[−]gessha · 2026-08-30 Sun 15:57 UTC · link
It’s on YouTube, pull the transcript and format it with an LLM. If there’s no transcript, there’s Whisper. All of this can be done with local models too.
[−]JavierFlores09 · 2026-08-30 Sun 16:17 UTC · link
Audio transcription is nowhere near the same as a properly written piece of text. Videos are simply a different format, and thus a lot of the communication is held by the fact that there's visual cues to go by. If one were to write an article about the same, you'd use much denser language as well as references/links around the topic. Maybe even restructure the whole thing to communicate it better through text.

It is something you can maybe whip up with the help of an LLM but then you're left wondering whether it is actually communicating what the video intended to begin with, as you wouldn't be as knowledgeable about the topic, one wouldn't be able to spot the parts where an LLM interpreted something horribly and thus reaching the wrong conclusions.

For all of the above, I do not consider audio transcript to be of any help when one prefers written content. It is useful for translation or people with hearing issues, but both of those receive help of the visual parts to convey the topic.

[−]ggdG · 2026-08-30 Sun 15:58 UTC · link
I asked my clanker to summarize it for me:

https://rentry.co/2ttr46r9

[−]brabel · 2026-08-30 Sun 16:23 UTC · link
This is one talk that is worth the 3 hours (the talk is 2 hours, plus a qa with none other than Ginger Bill of Odin fame)!
[−]bena · 2026-08-30 Sun 16:26 UTC · link
The last hour is a Q&A. I don't know if that changes your perception of how watchable it is.

It's also a little fluffy. It's basically the history of how the book Structured Programming came about, because it's that book that essentially caused Knuth to write an article that contained the quote.

A lot of it is fairly interesting but it also highlights a big problem I do have with Muratori. He generalizes from self. He didn't fully understand or appreciate the quote about premature optimization, so no one did. And even though he's been told what it actually means, and was probably pointed to the full quote, he would stick on his interpretation. It's likely someone he views as "higher", like Jon Blow, challenged him and then he took the time to actually look at it.